How Divorce Really Affects Children’s Mental Health — A Psychiatrist Explains

When parents decide to divorce, most of their attention naturally goes to the legal process and starting over. But what if the biggest impact is happening in their child's mind? I know there's a lot of people watching who probably are either in the process of getting divorced or think about it. There is nothing inherent about divorce that is going to traumatize a child. In fact, staying together in a conflictfueled relationship is probably as harmful to a kid, if more harmful to a kid than going through a divorce that actually is handled well and smoothly. Today, we're talking about what divorce actually feels like from a child's perspective. Psychiatrist Dr. Peter Cass is joining us to talk about the mental health effects of divorce on kids and teens. Do kids really bounce back? Is divorce itself harmful, or is it the conflict surrounding it? Welcome back to The Glamorous Grind, the podcast where we break down life's legal challenges with the experts who can help us navigate them. I'm Mila Arutunian, an employment and personal injury attorney, and I'm Ilona Antonyan, a certified family law specialist and a trial attorney. Today, we're joined by psychiatrist Dr. Peter Cass and he's going to help us look at raising emotionally healthy children through separation. He's in a very unique position to help us understand not just what parents are experiencing but what children are experiencing behind the scenes. Today we will look at the warning signs children may be struggling as well as the practical things families can do to create emotional stability during divorce and hopefully avoid psychiatric disorders that could develop or be triggered by divorce. While no parent wants to hurt their child, good intentions don't always translate into healthy outcomes. Today, we're asking an important question. Can you divorce without hurting your children? Let's get into it. Thank you so much for joining us. Thanks for having me. So, can you tell us a little bit about yourself and what you do? Yeah. So, I'm a holistic child, adolescent, and adult psychiatrist, which is kind of a mouthful, but basically I'm a psychiatrist who works with kids ages five all the way through adults for the rest of your life, their life. And I do a combination of things. I do traditional psychiatric work, which is providing diagnostic evaluations and medication treatment plans. I also practice a little bit more holistically. So, when I'm coming up with treatment plans, I talk a lot about non-medication interventions, like dietary changes, exercise. I'm a therapist. So, there's people I see who I do therapy with, plus or minus medications. And then I do a lot of family coaching and parent support. So, if a kid is a patient, I will often spend a lot of time working with the families to help them. If, I'm seeing an adult, I'm often talking to them about parenting and how they can be better parent. So, I'm a psychiatrist, but I who sees individuals, but it ends up being very familyoriented work, which I think really aligns with kind of the topic we're talking about today. Does that ever become a problem when parents go through a divorce? I mean, I certainly think divorce is one of the most challenging things families I see go through for all sorts of reasons because of not just the conflict between the parents, but also the logistical adjustments, moving into different houses, transitioning between houses, and for kids and teens, it really is a period of like vast and significant change where their lives that they've known are really shifting. And it doesn't necessarily mean for the worse, but it means there is a dramatic change happening in their family unit and the logistics of their life that do take up a lot of adjusting and navigating and can be terribly difficult for kids depending on how that whole situation is handled. You treat children and parents get involved for parenting consultations or to see how to adjust to the child to help them get better. Right? When they go through a divorce, they may disagree on treatment or what the other parent is doing versus what they should not be doing. Do you see them checking out of treatment or interfering with a child's treatment when previously as a family unit they we're all involved? Definitely. I think the most important thing for me to navigate as a psychiatrist and a therapist when I'm working with families going through divorce is at one point those families those parents may have been aligned. Usually though there always is some misalignment just because parents are different. Often times one parent has one perspective and another parent has another and so we're always navigating that. After divorce the legal requirements are that to make any change or adjustment to the treatment plan I do have to get consent from both parents because they share legal decision-making custody. And parents have very different perspectives on how to raise their kids especially when they're doing it in different households. So my job as someone's psychiatrist, as a kid psychiatrist, one is to advocate for them, to make my recommendations based on what I think is best for the kid, but also to make those recommendations while honoring the parents preference and opinions and feelings. And yes, so sometimes one parent does want to do something and another parent disagrees. And my job is to actually navigate that conflict and to help sort of understand the differences between the parents opinion and to help actually inform them of, you know, the pros and cons of any decision. So it ends up being sort of a balance is honoring the parents autonomy, but also doing my best to make sure that the plan we have in place is best for the kid. And the most important thing is that the parents aren't fighting the recommendations because they're in conflict with each other, but because they actually have different ideas of what's best for the kid, that's fine. But if they're disagreeing for the sake of fighting each other, that's where I have to jump in and sort of push a little bit harder against it because my job is to advocate for the kids's wellbeing. Sounds like you have to be a mediator between parents going through divorce that now are going at it against each other and potentially without intending so hurting the child's treatment. My goal when I'm working with families is never to get involved in their actual divorce or their relationship if they're not my patients, but to help them navigate the conflict to best parent their kid. So, for example, if I hear something where a parent is talking badly about the other parent to their kid, and I can tell that's getting in the kid's emotional way and causing them distress, my job as their therapist or psychiatrist is to kind of educate that parent on sort of what might be happening to understand why it's happening and to give them a different way of thinking about it. Not so they can necessarily, you know, navigate the divorce or the separation with their ex, but rather so they can actually create an environment that's healthiest for their kid. Remember a long time ago, I read an article as part of our continuing education course. It said, you know, when children hear the other parent talk negatively about their mom or dad because they know they're made up 50/50 of each of them. It impacts their self-confidence. That impacts their self-image no matter whether they agree or not with the other parent not being perfect parent. Do you agree with that? The way I think about it is especially in younger kids, our parents are our model for relationships. They are they are the most important things in our lives. They feed us, they clothe us, they keep us safe, they keep us protected. And what happens when a parent is painted in a negative light? A kid cannot tolerate that idea, right? Because their parent is supposed to be their ultimate protector. So if a kid is seeing something or hearing something about their parent, it is often safer for them to blame themselves than to actually think of their parents as being flawed because that is too harmful or scary. So kids internalize, well, if mom is struggling, it must be because of something I'm doing because there's no way my protector could be flawed or my dad could be flawed. And so that's it's heartbreaking. It's heartbreaking. Yeah, it's heartbreaking. Is. And so a lot of times what we see in adults is adults emotional challenges are often because something they internalized as a kid and in divorce that's where we see problems. It's like oh if you're divorcing and you're fighting each other that has to be my fault because you guys are supposed to have it altogether. Or if mom is crying or if mom is yelling that must be something I'm doing because there's no way she would just yell she's my protector. And so when we're helping families navigate divorce, that's the piece we have to reiterate is sort of like your conflict is being seen and heard and internalized by your kid. It doesn't mean you shouldn't have conflict. That's why you're getting divorced, but can you navigate that conflict behind closed doors? Can you make remain regulated? Or can you at least communicate with each other without bringing your kid into it so they don't absorb that and worst case scenario see themselves as the cause or the flawed part of the family unit. When parents cannot control themselves, as most can't because when they go through a divorce, usually one of them goes through temporary insanity because of difficulties, financial, sharing children, everything else. Do you see that resulting in long-term or short-term psychological or psychiatric damage to the child? I know there's a lot of people watching who probably are either in the process of getting divorced or think about it. There is nothing inherent about divorce that is going to traumatize a child. There is the so in fact staying together in a conflictfueled relationship is probably as harmful to a kid as if more harmful to a kid than going through a divorce that actually is handled well and smoothly. So my one of my big takeaways I want families to know is no getting divorced does not inherently cause your kid harm. In fact, it can in the long term better them if they now have a more stable environment. Now, the thing I would say is most common is every kid is going to go through psychological challenges when they're getting their parents are getting divorced. That doesn't mean it's traumatic. It doesn't mean that they're going to have long-term consequences of it. It just means they're going through a major change and they need help navigating it. The only way a kid is going to have really long-term effects is if that divorce is extremely contentious and volatile and that is being played out in front of the kids. So, these are situations where the parents are fighting. They're talking badly about each other to the kids. They're bringing the kids into it and making them make choices. Who do you want to live with, me or dad? This is an ultimatum. They are witnessing damaging, violent, upsetting things. Those are the things that cause the biggest long-term consequences. But divorce itself is not the problem. It's kind of how it's being managed. It's a very good perspective. Do you ever find that I feel like I've seen a lot of parents say, "Well, the other parent is damaging the kid and we have a therapist." And do you ever find yourself in that situation where you feel that a parent is using you as a sword against the other parent in divorce proceedings? And how do you navigate that? Well, one thing I do, you know, is I don't do work with kids that's court required because I actually think for me that interferes with my ultimate goal, which is to support the kid in a sort of a way that is separate from the legal system. And so one way that I sort of navigate that is I make sure that the work I'm doing with families is outside of the court system so that they know that like the work we're doing is actually not going to get brought into their divorce because that's the most important thing is if parents can think of me as like oh if I if he documents this or this and that I'm going to get custody and that is problematic. So I separate myself from that. And the other thing is, you know, when there is disagreement with parents, when a parent is either not agreeing to something I'm recommending or wants to remove their kid from treatment, that's not necessarily wrong, but I want to understand a parent's motivation for that. Is it because they don't agree with the recommendation I'm making, which is totally fine. Is it because they don't think I'm a good fit for their kid or their family, which is fine, or is it again, is their motivation because they just want to kind of butt heads with their ex? And in that situation, you know, I'm going to educate them on like my role, which is never to play favorites. It's never to favor one fa side of the family in front of the other. It's to create an environment that best supports their kid and to help their kid live the life they want to live. And so, so much of my work, even with a child patient, is I'm the parents therapist as well. And in fact, most of my work with kids ends up being more family work and adult work because in the end, the best way to support kids is having healthy, emotionally regulated parents. Yeah. And when it comes to legal custody, both parents have equal power to make decisions on behalf of the child. So if they don't agree to continue in therapy with you, one does, the other one doesn't, the child wants to remain, then the child can remain unless they get an order from the court that directs them for a good cause to find someone else. But you didn't have to deal with that yet, it sounds like. Yeah. Not. And I'm I'm fortunate because that's such a complicated situation. And you know, in my work with families, like my ultimate goal is not that everyone agrees or has the same parenting philosophy. And I tell parents that all the time. Like it's okay that in a separated house, what one parent has different expectations and rules than the other. That's just naturally what happens when families separate into separate households is you parent from your own perspective. And I try to show families that you can maintain your independence in your house and parent your kid the way you want and have it be different than how the other parent is parenting. And yet there can still be harmony in co-parenting in situations where there needs to be co-parenting. And that's so much of the work with divorcing families is yes, you can have your own lives and be separate, which is the therapeutic part of divorce, and still have harmony in the areas where you need to collaborate, which you know, as a kid gets older is less and less. But and that's where my hope is when I work with families that we can find a way to co-parent because that models then how they are going to deal with those situations outside of the appointments with me. When parents get upset with me, it's not usually because they're upset with my decision-making. It's because there's something happening in them where they feel unheard, dismissed, not understood, left out, especially in divorcing parents. And so that's where I try to navigate it is if a parent is getting upset, my job is to not necessarily get them to agree with me. It's to understand what I did that may have caused them to feel upset or left out. Okay? I think of mental health care like my practice is rooted no matter who I'm seeing a kid an adult medication no medication my care is rooted in relationships and in the end the best therapeutic interaction and relationships is when someone feels heard understood and listened to and that allows me to disagree with them right that's how we all can disagree and argue you know we're able to deate debate with someone when we know they respect us even if we disagree and so in working with families that's the ultimate goal is I need people to know I respect and care about them. That way when I disagree with them, they know it's not from a place of disrespect, it's just from a place of different perspectives. I think that ties back with what you said that was very powerful that staying in a high conflict relationship is actually more damaging to children than getting a divorce and having a easy divorce or a low conflict divorce because I have heard so many people say we're together for the kids. We're together as soon as the kids are 18 we're probably going to break up. And I've also heard a lot of adults say, "Yeah, my parents broke up when I was in college. They should have broken up, you know, 10 years ago because they were exposed to so much conflict. " And I think a lot of it is that just not feeling understood and heard, but having that go for long periods of time. I'm sure that has an effect on kids. And I anticipate that kids who are already seeing you probably have more highly empathetic parents who sign them up for therapy and want to nurture their feelings and emotional states. So probably you can help navigate that better. If a kid is in a situation where the parents are constantly yelling, fighting, just constantly in conflict with each other and a divorce would create space to have more sort of peace and co-parenting, then yes, there's potential that is helpful. At the same time, though, there's and. This is important. The kid is still going to go through a challenging time. Even if in the end they're going to be maybe better off emotionally by being with less conflict, there's still going to be the adjustment of, "Oh my god, my parents are living in separate houses, they don't love each other, is it my fault, I'm going to am I going to be able to stay in my school, all these things are still going to arise." That doesn't mean it's the wrong decision. And that's the important thing to know is even if a kid's having a hard time for parents, it doesn't mean they did the wrong thing. Especially if it's a parent who is leaving their spouse because of domestic violence, danger, safety issues, then absolutely it's the right thing even if the kid has a hard time with it. Of course. In terms of counseling families where there is violence, you know, I mean the first thing is I as a doctor am a mandated reporter, which basically means if I hear that a kid is experiencing anything that is physically dangerous or even extremely emotionally damaging in which they're witnessing, like I have an obligation to report it to CPS. That doesn't mean CPS is going to CPS is going to do anything. It just means they have that report. And so one thing I do share with families so they know ahead of time is hey listen just so you know like I'm legally required if there's anything that is endangering the kid in the house I have to report it. I tell families that up front so they know that it's not something I like doing but there are situations where a kid's safety is at risk and I have to report it. And so that will sometimes then sort of create a ball rolling where you know a parent will reassess a situation and things like that. The other thing is and I don't come across this just all that often like most of the time divorcing parents are doing the best they can to create a safe envir environment for the kid and they are the challenge is more in the emotional volatility there that's that physically harmful but more emotionally harmful but you know I think if I was experiencing a partner an adult who is experiencing domestic violence like in my role I would what I would try to do is I would try to set up as me like individual ual conversations with them where we could actually talk away from the partner and away from the kid so I could get accurate information and if they were experiencing violence I would one empathize with how hard that must be and actually sort of maybe try to educate them if they weren't aware on the on the harms of the situation because so many domestic violence victims aren't even aware of the cycle they're in. So I think my job at least to start would be to help them identify the cycle and to see the emotional damage and even physical damage that might be coming from it. What are some behaviors that you might notice in children that may indicate that they are struggling through their parents' divorce? Yeah. So I usually think when I think about emotional challenges as sort of like traffic lights. So green light being like mild like okay a kid might be a little bit sad. They might be a little bit irritable but they're still enjoying time with friends. They're going to school. They're getting good grades, they're doing everything they're doing. That bride just needs like an eye on it without any intervention. The red flag ones are, you know, a kid becoming violent, aggressive, refusing to go to school, socially withdrawing, so pulling away from activities they've always really enjoyed, sports, theater, not doing homework, you know, doing dangerous behaviors, doing drugs, kind of things like that. But a lot of times it's it's something more in the middle where it's more of yellow flag which is kind of like some social withdrawal. They seem a little bit more down. They seem to maybe not enjoying things as much as they used to. They are spending more time alone. They're maybe, you know, missing some assignments or they're, you know, there's some school change that's out of character. So it to me it really depends on like shifts from their baseline and how much it's kind of impacting areas of their life like academics, social relationships, kind of things like that. You said something really interesting and it was kids don't need perfect parents, they just need emotionally safe parents. Can you talk a little bit about that? Like what parents can do during a divorce when of course they feel conflict and they're human and it's hard and it feels heartbreaking because divorce is like a little death, right? And it's a family that you've built and you've put so much into that you're leaving behind. There's a lot of grief there. What can they do to continue to provide safe emotional spaces for their children notwithstanding what they themselves are going through so that the children can be less affected? I'm glad you use the word grief because grief is not just some an emotion around death. It's an emotion around loss. And so yes, a divorce is a loss. And so everyone in the family is going to grieve that loss. And that may look different than death, but it is a loss. And so that's just inevitable. And I think it's important for parents to tell kids that, which is you can be sad, you can struggle, you can be really upset, and that's just a total normal emotion. And I think it's really important for parents to validate the emotion and not try to get rid of it. A lot of parents when they see their kid anxious or distressed or sad, they want to take that away because they don't want to see their kids suffering. And more importantly, they don't want to feel bad that they're putting their kid through this. Sometimes the worst thing we can do is sort of try to take away a kid's emotion when in it's really important to allow them to sit in it and sit in it with them. And so as a parent when you're going through a divorce, so much of your action is going to be what can I do to make myself feel less guilty about this. So I'm going to give them candy. I'm going to give them all the gifts. I'm going to buy them every video game machine they want. And in the end, that doesn't actually solve the issue. It just makes you feel better. And so navigating that is really important. And the other thing is just sort of like really sort of trying to find the balance where recognizing a divorce might be the right decision for one or both parents and that divorce can be navigated between the parents and trying to minimize the involvement of the kid in it. So you know anything with a lawyer any arguments can they be done behind closed doors? Can they be done while kids are at school? Making sure that parents do not talk badly about each other like that in the view of the kid they are calm and settled and regulated so that the kid doesn't absorb all of that negative energy and for parents the most important thing I would say is get your own therapist get your own support system like don't use your kid don't use your family don't use your house as like a place to vent or a place to help regulate yourself like your job is to keep your kid regulated and the only way to do that is if you yourself are regulated. So if you're a parent and you're struggling in the emotions of the divorce, you need your own support team and that's not going to help you. That's actually going to help your kid in the long term. That is excellent advice. Yeah, I think about that all the time that there are places where we have to emotionally regulate like at work. You can't just lose it even when you want to. And then a lot of times it's inevitable that you know we go home and that's where like laughter there's there's no juice left to emotionally regulate. And that's fine like you know crying in front of your kids is not a bad thing right that's that is not dysregulation right inherently like crying or getting upset. So like if you had a really stressful day and you went home and cried and your kid came up to you and said mommy why are you crying? That's actually a teaching lesson. I'm crying because I had a really hard day and I'm a little bit sad and crying is what happens when you're sad, but I'm okay and in a in a couple minutes I'll feel better and thank you for asking. So that is regulated, right? It's not that you don't show emotion in front of your kids. It's that you don't lose control of your emotion and have it project in a way that's harmful by, you know, yelling at your kid, yelling at their parents, calling someone names. It's sort of in how you handle the emotions. And that's important for parents to know too is like actually showing emotions in front of our kids are is really important. It models it demonstrates how to talk about emotions, how to feel emotions. And that's what being a good enough parent is. It's like we're talking about earlier, it's yelling at your kids and then apologizing and saying, "Oh, that wasn't right." Like yes, you messed up, but I shouldn't have yelled at you. I could have handled that better. Like that's that's value. That's good enough. You don't need to be a perfect parent. You actually, it's good to mess up and to model what repairing an error looks like. Yeah. And so parents going through this, Yeah. You're going to mess up. You're not going to do it perfectly. And when you don't do it perfectly, it's an opportunity to take, I shouldn't have said anything bad about your dad. That was unfair. Like, he and I had a fight. You don't need to be involved in that. I'm not going to bring you into our conflicts anymore. That wasn't fair. Okay. So, now we have some questions from our listeners for you. Okay. And this segment is called Let's Get Gritty. I'm going to pull out one of the questions. My ex-husband constantly badmouths me in front of the kids. How damaging is that? Talked a little about this, but if you want to touch on it again, I don't want to make a blanket statement because, you know, what's being said, how is it being said, how old are the kids? There's so much. So, you know, I can't give a sort of a concrete it's this bad or it's not that bad. My only advice would be, and. This is challenging, is when you are divorced, you have no control for the most part over what happens in the other parents house. And that's really hard. And so, if this listener, if this watcher has a comm a relationship with their ex, I think it's worth it to have a conversation about, hey, our kids said you've been saying this about me. Can we talk about that because that doesn't feel really good and I'm worried that you saying that in front of them is going to harm our relationship. So if you've got a problem, we can talk about it or can we just agree to not talk about each other in front of the kids. In the end, depending on the relationship, that might not work. And that sucks and it's really hurtful. And then the only thing I would say to this listener is when the kids come over, try not to reciprocate. Not to talk badly about the other parent just because you hear it's happening about you. As tempting it as that is, it's not going to help anything. It's going to make things worse. So, in this situation, you know, if that other partner is not listening and not hearing what you're saying, taking the high road, even though it's really really really hard. And I really liked that approach of addressing it in a very professional way of like, hey, like this isn't great. Let's talk about this, please, as opposed to, you know, reciprocating and doing it back because I think that'll just do double the damage. And I do think that kids understand a lot more than they let on. So if they hear one parent badmouthing another and they actually want to tell that other parent, they probably understand that it's not right. Yes. And the one thing I'll see say, especially in older kids, adolescence is most adolescents are more bothered by the parent who's talking badly about the other than they are about hearing the bad about the parent who they're hearing badly about. Do you guys hear that? Yeah. So, laughter so, so like I will say when I talk to teens who are mid divorced or their parents are divorced, if one parent is talking about the other, they often come in and say, "Ah, it's so frustrating. My mom is always talking badly about my dad and I hate it." It's very rare that I hear, especially older kids, my mom is talking about my dad and I get it. My dad is such a terrible person. Like, it happens sometimes. But usually kids are savvy enough to know that like it doesn't feel it's it's immature and they sort of know that. Yeah. All right. Our next one. My 11-year-old daughter says she doesn't want to see her dad anymore. We've been divorced for three years and there is no abuse or anything and I'm not sure where it's coming from. What should I do first? So, this might be me and it might be sort of a little bit of controversial. I don't I believe we no co contact is too common right now. I think it kids going no contact from their parents is really really problematic because it ruptures the relationship beyond repair and oftentimes when people get older they want a relationship with the parent they went no contact from and it's really hard to repair and recover from. So in this 11year-old I'm not saying there isn't a reason for why they don't want to see their dad but I would want to get a better understanding of what that was. You know what's going on at dad's house? What's dad's parenting style? Is there something really scary and upsetting happening? Because then we want to honor it. Is it something that he's just it's just his parenting style that he's not doing anything wrong, but he might be a little bit more stern and have more rules than mom. Like, we really have to get to the a better understanding of what's happening at dad's house that she wants to avoid. If it's just his style is different or, you know, it's not as fun or he, you know, I don't know, has earlier bedtime, then that needs to be na navigated because she's she does still need to go there. But if it's something like abuse or neglect or something serious and scary, like, okay, we want we want to sort of honor that, but I think a little bit more investigating needs to come up here. And that would be where maybe a therapist or a counselor would be better. The girl might not be willing to share with mom what's happening at dad's or might and so it might be getting a third party involved would actually be helpful to navigate this. Yeah. What about younger children like when they're under one or one two three years old and the mom doesn't want them to go because they may be breastfeeding or they think it's too early. Do you still think that should be forced for extended period of time? Let's say it's a newborn and breastfeeding has to happen every two to three hours. That might be something where there's an agreement in the custody for like in the short term like mom is going to have more custody with an op with sort of it agreed upon that you're as the child gets older and is less dependent on mom specifically that arrangement will shift and more time will be spent at the other parents house. Yeah that there is something biological about that especially with breastfeeding and then what you would run into I guess is if the dad didn't agree because breastfeeding is not necessary for survival and so that would be more of like a yeah a legal thing is how do you decide custody with something that is medically beneficial but not medically necessary and do you value that over parental custody but you can't predict from judicial officer to judicial officer how they're going to interpret it because there are no rules on that and it requires ires experts like yourself or someone else to come and say what's right and wrong and there is no right or wrong answer right because it could be argued from a scientific perspective and then there's hey each parent should have their custody rights it doesn't matter if it's a man or a woman breastfeeding certainly we know has biological benefits immune system benefits bonding emotional connection and at the same time you know I've babies who are fed formula also still bond with their parents and connect and you still do the feeding and make eye contact and so this would be a situ like it's a I agree with you. I think it would depend on the lean of the person you we're talking to. Are they more biologically oriented? Are they more like it's all about emotional attunement and a non- breastfeeding parent can emotionally tune as well as a breastfeeding parent? And. This is why I'm glad I'm not a judge because I don't think there's a right answer. And I don't think it's fair to have to decide what's right and wrong. And in the courts, you do have to like as a judge or as a lawyer. And so that would be my role as a therapist is sort of helping people understand not what's right or wrong, but what's your motivation for your preference? And that's what I do as a therapist all the time. Like if people want to leave their job, well, are you leaving it because you want to? Is it because it's hard and you're not comfortable doing anything hard? It. All therapy, all guidance comes down to what's your motivation for doing something. Is it healthy? Is it not healthy? If it's not healthy, how do we recognize that and make an adjustment? Next question. How do I introduce a new partner without traumatizing my children? Gradually, certainly gradually. I think also it's sort of really age dependent. Sort of a younger kid, you're going to navigate it a little differently with an older kid. You know, I think it's always best to start that conversation before you ever introduce the partner. So, and you don't even need to, again, age dependent. Older kids, you'll be more transparent. Younger kids, not so much. But I've been spending time with a new friend if the kid's older. I've been spending time with a new man or woman who sort of, you know, we're dating. I'm telling you this because one, I want you to know why I've been out of the house a little bit more. And I'm also telling you just because it's it's not serious, but I am seeing this person. I just want you to know and we can talk about it. And that conversation is had over and over and over again. And then eventually, and. This is a really personal decision, but when that new partner becomes an important part of your life that it's worth the risk of introducing them to their kids, right? The risk is your kids don't like them, they're mean to your kid, you break up and you have to explain that to your kid. So that's a personal decision. But once that person is important enough to you, then it's about to your kids, hey, remember that new friend I've talked about? I was thinking it'd be nice for you guys to meet. How do you feel about that? And how would you be comfortable meeting them? Like maybe not in the house because that's a little bit personal, but would you want to go to a park with them? Like would you want to go to dinner? What would feel comfortable to you? And I would just make it a casual short visit. And then you can slowly sort of like titrate up as the relationship builds. But I think no rush, gradual is better, and being transparent. Like from personal experience, the worst thing you can do is lie to your kids about where you're going, who you're seeing, and then you have to like, you know, I've had situations where they don't tell their kid until like the relationship has really progressed, and the kids like, "Wait, what? You're dating someone?" It's like, yeah, you if you're leaving the house to go see someone and your kids are old enough to be like, "Where is mom and dad going?" They're old enough to know like, "Yes, I've been dating again. " And let's talk about what that means. That would be so traumatizing to a kid. I feel like my son had a moment where I don't know who I was talking about, but I was like, "Yeah, I dated this guy." And he's like, gasps "You've had a boyfriend?" And laughter I'm like, "Yeah. " Yeah. And he was like, "Tro's like, I thought you we're only with dad. Dad was your only boyfriend." I'm like, "No." laughter gasps And that's where again kids seeing their parents as flawless, right? Like the idea that you had had a life before your son, before your husband is like it's it's not even believable. Laughter And so we could see how that's why like you need to be gentle with kids cuz you are a superhero to them. And so the idea that like you've broken a law, you've made mistakes, you've had other relationships is just like mindblowing. You know, our parents never have to think about this, but I'm always like, is my response going to traumatize them? Is it going to make it better? How much does their mind really capable of understanding this? You want to be honest with them and treat them like mature, responsible beings, but also not go over their heads. And I was actually talking to a friend of mine today who's a therapist and he was sort of quoting someone or maybe himself. I don't know what he was talking about, but he was saying basically like if you're to be a good parent means you're constantly thinking about how to be a good parent. Mhm. So it's like we think we actually get turned around in knots like what's the best thing to do? What's the best thing to do? When in reality the fact that we are thinking about that makes us a good parents. Well, I didn't cry in front of my kids for a long time. Long time. Like until probably the first time I cried in front of my oldest son. He was eight like a year ago. And he was just like shocked. And he was like, "Oh my god, I don't know what to do. I've never seen my mom cry. " And at that point, I was like, "Oh my god." And he thinks I'm a robot. Laughter But now he's the way where when he's really upset, I see him holding back tears. And I hate that. I'm like, "You can cry. It's okay." He's like, "No, I'm strong." Like, "No, don't be like me." Breaks your heart when you like see them just like struggling to hold tears in and just like, "I'm okay. I'm okay. " I'm like, "You're not okay. Just let it happen." And that's, you know, that's the next episode where we can talk about masculinity and what that means and it's okay to cry. Interesting. Okay, let's choose the longest one. Should I tell my kids the real reason for our divorce? It was their mom's infidelity, but I don't want them to blame him. Yeah. No, they Yeah. Yeah. I think that's a simple answer. Your kids don't need to know why you're getting divorced. And in fact, that one especially, your kids don't need to know that it was because of their mother's infidelity. It's just that I always think about when you think about telling kids, is it beneficial for the kids? It's the same way as I think as a therapist. Anything I share with a patient has to be for their benefit. It can't be like I'm sharing to make myself feel better or feel good. And so in this situation, I can't see any reason why the kids knowing that would benefit them in this process. But in a real life, it is almost impossible to keep that away from the kids because a parent will be experiencing shock and betrayal. They'll be sad. They'll be crying. They'll be talking to friends and family discussing this. The children will hear it. And depending on the age of the child, they are also aware that something has been going on and may be suspicious or have seen texts or their parents talking. Some parents are in impenetrable like they are very good at hiding conflict. But how do you handle that? If the children know that the parents are separating because of infidelity, how do you heal that? I would I mean I would try not to share it with them and then if they did find out or they did hear that would be then sort of okay now I'm having a conversation about what they know and what they're feeling and I would again the ultimate goal is to allow kids to maintain trust and love for both parents if possible. And so let's pretend I was a parent and I knew my kid heard. I would say I know you've heard that part of the reason we're getting divorced is that your mom I don't know what language I cheated or had had relationships outside of marriage. And I know you know that and I know that might be really upsetting to hear but just so you know adult relationships are really really complicated. Your mom doing that doesn't mean she's a bad person or that she's a bad mom and you don't have to understand our relationship. That did happen. But at the same time, there's so much more involved that you don't have to worry about and she is still your mother and that doesn't change anything. I don't see anyone that I've divorced being able to say it that way and keep their cool. Like in a perfect world, if you're not the hard person, it's easy to say, but I think as a kid, when you hear a parent talking like that, you're going to immediately favor that parent. Like I just feel like kids are going to be more geared towards like understanding the parent who's empathetic and taking that as a example. That is such a high road though that most people cannot follow cuz when you're hurt and you feel betrayed whether you're a man or a woman to sit down and just act like the other person, oh it's okay, you know, we'll get through this. Like how are you gonna do that? And I agree like the it's easy for me. It's always easier for me to say it than do it, especially like. This is like a physics problem where we're pretending friction doesn't exist, it makes it all easier to have the conversation. And so these are all hypothetical and when the emotions get involved, that's why I would never blame a parent for handling it differently. My job is to give parents the best way to do it and to get as close as that as possible, knowing when emotions get involved, it's harder. And at the same time, I think in this situation, in saying this to your kid, you're not necessarily saying that you're happy with the other parent or that you're not. You could even say I'm st I am devastated that my it is really hard what I'm going through with your other parent and this situation is really complicated and I if you're able to say it with some honesty and I know though this doesn't change who they are as a parent to you. I mean it's okay then to tell them you're hurt and to share your tears because you can't it's hard to hide that and that's reality and that's what we're talking about like yeah the emotional part is not traumatizing to a kid. It's okay to explain your emotions, to show your emotions, to share your emotions. The error, the problem comes in if those emotions then lead you to damage their relationship with the other parent. Dr. Cass, what do you think is the best way to tell the children that the parents are separating? I think. This is going to sound cliche. I think the messaging that everyone parent already knows to say which is it's got nothing to do with you right and even if a kid might not fully understand that but has to be said I think it should be said that should be have there should be a conversation between the two exes around when the best time to share it is when can we do it in a way where we're calm and settled and talking to each other about how you're going to deliver that news to the child or children. It should be done together. It should be done with the same messaging. It shouldn't be dad says this and mom says this or one parent says this. It should be a uniform message and it should really be kind of grounded in this idea that you know we are still a family. Mommy and I, you know, our family's going to look different and it might even feel different and that's going to be hard, but in the end, we are still your parents and we are still going to do everything you need us to do for you and take care of you and our hope and that this may be hard at first, but we're going to be here to help you navigate whatever feelings you have that come up. What's the best way to explain to the children that they will not be living under the same roof anymore? I don't think there's a good there's there's no good way to say it. It's basically just like as part of this process ripping off the band-aid, daddy or mommy are going to is going to live in another house. So, you are going to stay in this house and you're going to spend part of the time there. And we know that's going to be hard and different and uncomfortable and we are going to help that make that as easy as possible. But in the end, we know that. This is the best thing for me and mommy and for you even if this feels really hard right now. And that's the piece where like we know this sucks. We're still doing it, but it sucks. And that honoring those two things, it has to happen and we know it sucks. I think no matter how old the child is, even if they're grown up or a teenager, young child, they always want their parents to get back together. There's that secret hope that maybe parents will reunite. How do you address that? I think a parent would probably be want to when they're sharing with a kid say, and. This is just a separation. Mommy and daddy may live. We may get back together when in reality that's probably not going to happen. But it gives the kid hope and then in the end it just leads them to be let down in the future. So I would just sort of I would I would frame divorce or separation to kids as especially divorce. Mommy and I are not going to be married anymore. We're going to live in separate houses. We're still going to take care of you and love you and you're still going to see us all the time and we're still your mom and dad and we're still a family even though it looks different. But I wouldn't ever tell a kid and we might get back together or I think we're gonna because in the end if you do get back together that's awesome. The kid might like it. The kid might not because maybe they'd be worried. Oh man, are they going to fight again? Are they going to be f like all this stuff and then if it doesn't happen the kid's not going to be let down that you told them something might that won't. Dr. Cass, thank you so much for joining us today and helping us better understand the emotional world of children navigating divorce. One of the biggest takeaways from today's discussion is that children don't need perfect parents. They need emotionally safe parents. The way you communicate and manage conflict can make an enormous difference in how kids experience divorce and how they heal afterwards. Hit that subscribe button and make sure to follow us. And if you've got a question for Let's Get Gritty, leave it in the comments or send it to podcastanmiranda. Com. Thank you for listening and we'll see you next time on the Glamorous Grind.